DCML digest, Vol 1 #929 - 20 msgs

[Kriton Kyrimis]

JUSSI:

> (and also, if there's any language that doesn't call an idea something
> derived and very similar to the original "idea"?)

Try any non-Indoeuropean language. (I would assume that there is at
least one Chinese word for "idea". I'm also surprised that, judging from
your question, there isn't a Finnish one--or is "idea" just one of the
alternatives in the Finnish language?)

I was going to try a sort of inverse question, and ask if there is any
language, other that Greek, who calls Greeks by their own name (Hellenes),
rather than Greeks, Ionians, or Romans, but a similar discussion has
already started, so I'll just jump in.

APOSTOLIS:

> In Greece, we say "Ollandia" which means "Holland",
> not "The Netherlands".

The official name is "Kato Hores", which means something like "lower
countries". You are right, however, that this term is not used in
everyday speech.

SIGVALD:

> Well your country also has two names (at least in
> Norwegian) "Grekenland" (the same as Greece)and
> "Hellas".
> 
> Can you tell us more about the difference between
> these terms?

WAY, WAY OFF-TOPIC REPLY:

Actually, our country has only one name: Hellas, which, in ordinary speech
has evolved into "Ellada", as Apostolis mentioned [prononced ell-ah-tha
stress on the second synnable, with the "th" pronounced as in the word
"the"]. Greeks call themselves "Hellenes" [pronounced "hell-leans", if you
are English, Ell-in-ess (stress on the first syllable) if you are a modern
Greek, and somewhere in between if you are an Ancient Greek].  All other
names were given to Greeks by other people, namely Romans and Turks:

* Romans first met a people called "Graikoi", which they transcribed as
  "Graeci" (or something like that), from which the name used in most
  western countries is derived.
* Turks first met Ionian Greeks, which they transcribed as "Yunan",
  which is their name for Greeks, with "Yunanistan" being the Turkish name
  for Greece.  I believe that this term is also used in parts of Asia.
* Greeks do have another name for themselves, as a people: "Romioi"
  (plural, singular is "Romios"), which is an abbreviated form of
  "Romaioi", i.e., Romans. For centuries after the fall of Rome, the
  Eastern part of the Roman Empire survived and prospered. The name of
  the empire remained "Rome", and its people "Romans" ("Byzantium" is a
  term that was coined by scholars relatively recently). This third name
  was more of an indication of citizenship, rather than nationality,
  as the Eastern Roman Empire encompassed more than Greeks. Derived
  from this name is another Turkish name for Greeks, "Rum" (or something
  like that). Mainland Greece used to be the "Rum province" during the
  Turkish occupation.

Ancient Greeks would call themselves Hellenes (but not too ancient--the
name is hardly mentioned in Homer, and if it is, it is used to describe
a small group of Greeks). During Byzantine times, the name fell into
disgrace (it became something like the opposite of "Christian"), and
Hellenes became Romans. When independence was gained from the Turks,
the name "Hellas" was reintroduced, partly under the influence of the
Romantic movement, which had been in vogue at that time in Europe.
These days, Greeks hardly call themselves "Romans" anymore. As for the
other two terms, the term "Greek" was hardly ever used by Greeks to
describe themselves, and "Ionian" was probably never used at all.

Now, aren't you sorry you asked?

	Kriton	(e-mail: kyrimis at cti.gr)
	      	(WWW:    http://dias.cti.gr/~kyrimis)
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"Absolute power never appealed to me either.  Fine for the first couple of
 weeks, but then there's all that tedious paperwork."
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